"​​Every single person thought I was crazy"

with Lucy Legal

Show notes:

TRIGGER WARNING: This episode contains discussions of baby loss which may be difficult for those with similar experiences.

Lucy Legal is someone who knows pressure – a corporate legal job meant she was often working til 2am, then training with her private PT clients first thing before work. Realising that corporate life just wasn’t working for her when it came to starting a family, Lucy took the leap and went full time self employed. Everyone thought she was crazy to say goodbye to her company’s excellent mat leave and pension but she looked seriously at the financial considerations for her and her partner and made it work. Two businesses and two babies later and Lucy is an incredibly successful founder creating a life with intention for her and her family.

Lucy was incredibly generous in sharing her personal and business experiences: Her experience of growing her team and what she could have done to make it work better; where she’s choosing to invest now to create more time and how a corporate background can shape your thinking in ways that aren’t helpful.

One of the best things about being a business owner is that you can create your own ways of working, so why do things the way they have always been done?

BONUS: Lucy shares the 3 legal essentials that your business needs NOW




About Lucy Legal:

Lucy is truly an inspiring woman, mother of two, lawyer and business owner. Her mission to support women and business owners to ‘Get Legit’ in their businesses has truly made me listen up.

She is your go to woman for anything legal from Trademarks, to Terms & conditions. If you listen to ANY Bump to business owner podcast – make it this one

Lucy’s Links:

Website (Lucy Legal)
Website (Wheeler Wood)



Hello. I’m Caroline Marshall, and welcome to Bump to Business Owner the podcast speaking to mums in business. You. I’ll be in conversation with some of the most inspiring women and mothers in enterprise about their journey, how they created their successful businesses alongside raising their children and what that looks like in work and family life.

Caroline [00:00:05]:

Hello and welcome to today’s episode of Bump to Business Owner. I am your host, Caroline Marshall, and I am so pleased to welcome Lucy Legal to the show today. Lucy is truly an inspiring woman. Mother of two, lawyer and business owner. Her mission is to support women and business owners to get legit in their businesses has truly made me listen up. She is your go to woman for anything legal, from trademarks to terms and conditions. If you listen to any podcast, listen to this one. Hi, Lucy, thank you so much for coming today.

Caroline [00:01:03]:

How are you?

Lucy [00:01:05]:

Thank you for having me. And what a kind introduction that was. Thank you so much for those wonderful words. I’m excited to listen to this too.

Caroline [00:01:15]:

I’m so pleased. So how I like to start these off a little bit is I love hearing about mums who started their businesses and their career path that led to it. So tell us a bit about you, Lucy.

Lucy [00:01:25]:

Thank you so much. Yeah, I mean, I guess by a lot of these kind of things, it’s always interesting to hear when things happen by accident, isn’t? Never. And I’m one of those stories. I never believed or thought I would be a business owner. I never sort of was at school thinking, yes, I’m going to start my own business. And being a lawyer, I think you tend to go down a very traditional route of go to university, qualify, choose your profession, pick a firm and stay there for a while. And that’s sort of what I did. And I didn’t really ever think I would be able to be a business owner.

Lucy [00:01:59]:

I couldn’t see how that could work, and it didn’t mean that I didn’t want to, though. I used to see people and I think the world of social media changes maybe our aspirations in a number of different ways. And I would see people and I was scrolling on my phone thinking, oh, my goodness, all these people are having fantastic adventures and I’m just sitting in the corporate world glued to my desk. What am I doing wrong? And for a while I was thinking, shall I give up law? Is that the only way to live a life that you love is to not do the career part with it and actually go away, live a laptop lifestyle? Wasn’t sure how that might look, but just be outdoors adventuring. And I love health and well being and I qualified as a personal trainer, so as well as being a lawyer, I qualified as a personal trainer. And I was thinking, maybe I’ll do that and I started at a boutique gym. I qualified and I got a position alongside working in a law firm as well. And I would teach classes.

Lucy [00:03:00]:

So in the morning I would go and I would teach on the gym floor or after work. I’d say to my boss, I’ve got to leave at this time because I’m teaching people this evening at the gym. And he was like, okay, you’re crazy, but fine, go. And then I was like, I just don’t think that’s what I want to do. I don’t want to give up the law element of it and become full time doing fitness. And then a few different things happened actually, which I think we probably will touch on shortly, which then made me realise actually I could do the legal thing. Sounds pretty obvious when you think about it because that’s what I’m qualified, but I could take the legal element and turn that into a business.

Caroline [00:03:39]:

That’s amazing. Firstly, didn’t know you trained in personal training, so that’s a great another string to your bow you can always have if you wanted it. But also, I love your honesty about how social media kind of made you think you could do something else. I think that’s so interesting because I think that’s probably true for a lot of us, but we don’t actually identify it or praise social media for the good things it can bring to your life and thinking, okay, this is my career, I could do it differently.

Lucy [00:04:08]:

Yeah, definitely. I think I mean, for me, social media has changed my whole life and I think when people think about it, it has such a big impact on our life, even if we don’t use it for work. But the fact now that my business is the way that it is, connecting with people through being online, that’s huge. And obviously when I was at school doing my GCSEs and my A levels, that wasn’t like a choice. The job that I have and the business I have, the model, we didn’t really even have the internet to show my age here. I’m pretty sure we didn’t have the internet when I was at school. And I think it’s just I’d got to the point, like, I’d worked really hard and I was in a career path, and it was in sort of this is what you do. This is the acceptable thing, that you go to school, you work hard, you do a good job, and you sort of get in at the bottom of a firm and you work your way up.

Lucy [00:04:53]:

And I was doing all of that, but I remember stopping once and it was one of those times where it is a stop, when it was New Year’s Day and I looked back and I was like, what have I done with my life? What have I actually done in this last year? And I hadn’t done anything apart from work and work late. I think I’d got a promotion, which was obviously a notable achievement. And I just thought, gosh, if my life was a book, it would have been so boring, I wouldn’t have even read it myself. And I was just literally going through the motions. I wasn’t even going on holiday or spending times with friends. I was canceling on them and I was just wedded to the job. And that’s what society had told me was the right thing to do, climb the corporate ladder. And I was terrified as well.

Lucy [00:05:38]:

As soon as I take my foot off the gas here and want to start a family, how is that going to work? Because I could see around me, everybody was a lot of people, especially in legal, were male, male dominated. I used to ask them about their wives. Their wives were having the family and they were the ones in the office. And I was thinking, how is that ever going to be me? Because as soon as someone almost was out of the office, it was like out of sight, out of mind. You had to be there, you had to put in the time, you had to put in those late nights to be seen, to be committed to the industry. And it wasn’t just the firm I was in at the time. That’s legal, isn’t it? And I think it’s a lot of different industries as well. I think a lot of people resonate that you have to be seen in the office to be doing a good job, or at least you did pre COVID.

Lucy [00:06:25]:

So I think it was a lot of that that was really worrying me at the time, of like, how would I ever have a family that is.

Caroline [00:06:32]:

So interesting because I kind of bring this up a lot. I feel like if you’ve had the privilege, like, clearly we have, where you’re at school and it’s like, you can go and do this. If you work hard enough and that’s what you want to do, you can go do it. And then there’s this missing piece of like, yeah, but actually a lot of these careers aren’t suitable if you also want a family, because obviously they don’t want to be talking to their teenage girls about having kids at that age. They just want us to think about careers. But then the family side to a lot of people, or at least the conversation of if you go down that route becomes really important and your career in that. And that’s really interesting because I have friends in law firms or in corporate law and the stories I hear about how it doesn’t work for women with families still, like post COVID, that’s still the case. And it’s interesting that it sounds like you were aware of that before you even started thinking about the family side.

Lucy [00:07:25]:

Yeah, and I think I was just like, this is just not going to happen for me. I can’t work out a way that it would work. I couldn’t see that it would work. And I think you’re so right that there’s an expectation. Things have shifted. We can be anything we want to be. And I believe that I am a really big believer of create a life that you love. If I had a motto, it’d be that kind of thing.

Lucy [00:07:47]:

I definitely believe that we can. And that’s what makes the way that I’ve created my life now has been really intentional. But at the same time, there’s so much pressure even to be the business owner, to be the person at the top of the business in your team, to be the mum, to be the best friend, to be the wife, to wear all the hats. And don’t just wear them, but wear them really well and don’t drop any balls. And actually see if you can do things and make everything even better and change the world while you’re doing it. We have grown up, haven’t we, as you say, so lucky, lots of opportunities. And I know I have got a lot of things that have helped me along the way, but we’ve had so many opportunities to do great things. But with that comes a lot of pressure.

Caroline [00:08:32]:

Yeah, that’s so true. And I think mums, as mums and women, we do put pressure on ourselves, don’t we? And I think if there’s someone listening to this who’s like in a legal job, whether they’re a mother or not, and they’re like, so how did you take that leap, then? I think that is the first piece for a lot of people going into business. So how did you go from this successful career, safe career to an extent, if you think about it that way, to going out on your own.

Lucy [00:09:02]:

Okay, so the way I did it, we can talk about the practicalities in a moment, but the trigger that actually made it happen is quite sad and I’m happy to share that. So I had just got married at the end of 2019 and was meant to be going away on my honeymoon in March 2020, which I thought was going to happen once in a lifetime world round trip to Australia and we’d fallen pregnant at the start of the year. And I was then thinking, okay, this trip is going to be incredible. It might not be quite what we’d planned if we’re pregnant, but it’s still going to be an incredible trip away. And just as the world was about to find out about COVID we had an early scam because we were going on our flight and we thought we were going to go away and the baby that we thought we were going to have, we weren’t having anymore. And I’d had what is known as or called a missed miscarriage. So I didn’t know that I wasn’t pregnant anymore. My body still felt very pregnant, I was still getting a lot of symptoms, but I suddenly wasn’t going to be having this baby anymore.

Lucy [00:10:08]:

And I never really even heard about missed miscarriage. I was absolutely gutted as someone who had dedicated their life to health and well being. I’d also run six marathons in five days across the desert, climbed Kilmanjaro was someone who was healthy and so felt very much like my body had let me down, felt very lost, because at that point it was still very early. It was a couple of weeks earlier than you would have had through the NHS a scan, but because we thought we were going away, we had it early and obviously we didn’t go away because the world closed down, the borders closed, and we were very much alone. And actually, it was an awful time. And it was a time which seems crazy now, where there was no toilet roll. And I was in by myself having this scan to find out. Obviously, I had to go back a few days later and one of the midwives was saying, I can’t sorry.

Lucy [00:11:03]:

The health practitioner was saying, I can’t believe it. There’s literally no toilet roll anywhere. You can’t even get paracetamol. And I’ve got to send you home now to do this by yourself because there was a procedure I’d have to have and they were allowing you to do it at home. There was a very stressful period. COVID has been stressful for everyone. Everyone’s got their own story, and I guess that was partially mine. But then I had to navigate the part where lots of people were spending time at home with their children and sort of saying, you’ve got a wonderful life.

Lucy [00:11:33]:

Oh, look at you. You’re at home, it’s just you and your husband, and what a great way to have COVID if it’s just the two of you. And it was awful for us, but I realised at that point how much pressure I had on me at work. And I tried to talk to them about it and I think because of everything that was happening with the world, they weren’t able to offer the support I maybe needed. But I realised then that I perhaps dedicated too much to work to jeopardising my own health. We had a bit of a pause. We then got back into things again and fell pregnant again quite quickly. Great news.

Lucy [00:12:05]:

But at that point, I also had a lot more work and I’d been given millions and pounds more of claims to work with as a lawyer. And the pressure was just really intense and we lost that baby as well. And I realised that my health perhaps hadn’t been prioritised in quite the way I thought I had, and that it had been very much adrenaline driven and HiiT workouts and that kind of thing. And actually, my body needed to rest and it didn’t need the work environment where you are just constantly trying to be better all of the time. And a year or so beforehand, I’d set up Lucy Legal, and I just was selling the odd template online to people who I knew, people who recommended me. And it was getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and I just sort of thought, you know what? I really, really want to have a family, and I’ve got to make a choice here. I could carry on the way I’m going, but I can see I need to prioritise health and I’d grown. This business hadn’t taken any money out of it, so there’s a little bit of a pot there, which was great for us.

Lucy [00:13:12]:

So essentially, I had some savings that meant that I could do it. And when we found out we were pregnant again, I was like, I’m not even waiting now to lose this one. This is like third time we’re having this baby. And we did and I left. I think every single person thought I was crazy. And a lot of our friends and family have said to us, now, we’re so proud of you, we can’t believe you made it work. You left a job with a pension, with maternity pay, with the room to grow and make more money, with career progression. You left it in the middle of COVID for nothing, really, essentially.

Lucy [00:13:53]:

And that’s what you do sometimes when you know you want a family, you’ll put anything into it, don’t you?

Caroline [00:13:59]:

Thank you so much for sharing. Honestly, to hear your story. I know that it’s not always easy to share something, but I know I’ve got friends going through something similar right now and there’s so much just to know that when someone else has gone through that, you can relate to someone else and that’s always helpful. And also, I think so many of us as mums can relate to that feeling that our bodies have failed in different ways. I myself, from my own journey, can feel that. That’s a real insight and really good for anyone listening to be like, we all go through this because there’s nothing worse. What an amazing journey that you managed to create this life for yourself that also ended up with you. Well, you’ve got two babies now, don’t you? Yeah.

Caroline [00:14:47]:

Thank you so much. And, oh, gosh, wow. Yeah. It’s so inspiring to hear you. So when did you have your first baby and how did you kind of you’d started growing Lucy Legal?

Lucy [00:15:01]:

Yeah, and I appreciate just going on to that. There’s a lot in that that I’ve just shared. And I know and I know it’s really hard, and everybody has different journeys. And I think for me, that’s a big thing. Like knowing that everybody’s journey is different and that you don’t know what people are going through. And that that’s a really hard juggle, because I turned up every day. I went to those appointments, a lot of them by myself at hospitals and things, and I turned up for work. I didn’t miss a team meeting.

Lucy [00:15:29]:

Like, I was there, I was present. And I think there’s a lot to be said for anybody who’s trying to juggle that journey as well. Like that journey of having maybe trying to conceive we were so fortunate. And people say that, too, that you have to juggle what people are saying, oh, well, at least you can get pregnant. And you think, yeah, we’re not managing to keep them. So it’s really hard to say the right thing. And it’s almost I’ve tried since to think of the words to say, and there are no words sometimes, and I wonder if that’s what we should just say and just say, I don’t know what to say to you, but I’m thinking of you. I don’t know the right words.

Caroline [00:16:05]:

I think, yeah, there’s so much in that because I’ve thought about this a lot because my second child was a very sick baby, so I am very fortunate. Both my babies I fell pregnant with quite quickly and easily, but went through the whole COVID pregnancy with the second. And there were challenges along the way. But, yeah, there was a little bit like when he came out, oh, at least he’s okay now. And the reality was we didn’t know if he was okay now. And it’s those words. And I think sometimes the kindest thing we could do for each other would be like, thank you for sharing, and just be like, is there anything I can do now to support you? Or how are you feeling after this? I think I had a close conversation with someone recently, and it is like, how are you doing now? Kind of thing. Have you taken the time for yourself? Kind of thing.

Caroline [00:16:55]:

And honestly, I’m just so grateful for you sharing your journey because I think those words are sometimes quite hard to overcome, aren’t they?

Lucy [00:17:04]:

Yeah, definitely. And if you can’t find the words, because sometimes I know I’ve not been able to and you don’t know what to say. But it’s also the things that you can do, the gestures, the fact that you could maybe not send someone flowers, but maybe just send them a book that you think they might enjoy or something that’s thoughtful, that’s a little bit different. And maybe ask your partner to check in on their partner because the husbands get forgotten and wives depending on what the setup is. But the husbands get forgotten sometimes, don’t they, the partners. So maybe say or can you arrange to go for a pint with them? And those kind of things all get forgotten because it’s really hard and it’s such a hard time and there’s a wrong thing to say. And there’s no list of I would say this thing in this situation for sure, but I think it makes you really realize when you can’t have something that you do really want it, after all. And I think that was what it was for me.

Lucy [00:18:00]:

And although I’d always wanted this lifestyle secretly, but to myself. Now I can see I watched people on social media, I could see that they were entrepreneurs. I love that idea, but I just couldn’t see how it would work for me. And it got to a point where they basically said, choose at work because they said, you’ve got so much on and they said, this is an obvious thing not to do. And I said, I choose that. And I don’t think that was necessarily expected that I would make that choice because I’d always put firm first. And so, yes, I chose the templates business and very quickly, I then missed doing one to one work. So whilst pregnant, I decided I would set up my own law firm, as you do.

Lucy [00:18:46]:

So probably a few months after saying I was only going to do things and keep the pressure low.

Caroline [00:18:51]:

And was this in 2020? Can I ask when you decided to set up your own law firm?

Lucy [00:18:57]:


Caroline [00:18:57]:


Lucy [00:18:58]:

So I said that was at the end of 20. I think I started the process in November 2020 and our baby was born in April 21. So I was sort of midway through in that bit when you get a little bit of last night, everyone’s different from that second trimester, where you’re like, oh, this is actually okay.

Caroline [00:19:13]:

Yeah, I got that with my second. I missed it on my first, but my second, I was like, I’ve got all the energies, I’ll do all of this.

Lucy [00:19:20]:

Yeah, and that was something exciting, which I hadn’t realized, that you’d get lots of ideas and inspiration and I really had different pregnancies as well. I don’t know if anyone’s listening to this and you’ve maybe got one child or you’re about to experience it, and I always just sort of thought, oh, it’s going to be the same if I have two children, they’ll be the same. No, that wasn’t the case either. Very, very different. Which is hard for planning things, but, yeah, so I thought, I’m going to put the groundwork in. I don’t have to pick up the firm, I don’t have to actually support clients until I’m ready. But people were asking, people wanted that bespoke support from a fully regulated law firm. So I was like, I can do this, why not set it up? So I did.

Lucy [00:20:04]:

And so now I have two businesses. Two businesses and two babies since then. And, yeah, it’s a challenge. It’s a lot to navigate. Even just getting ready to come and record with the you, it’s like getting everyone out of the house. It needs to be silent. Go, it’s a challenge.

Caroline [00:20:22]:

And it’s so true what you said. There about two different babies and things, and I think that’s really interesting, like how everyone’s journey is different, but also even when you think you’re going to be the same, because you think, I’m this kind of mum, I’m this kind of pregnant person. And it is like I briefly touched on our son being a neonatal. I remember my first was quite a good sleeper, and then with my second, I thought I’d be working in the evenings by the time he was six months at least. No, he had other plans. And I think it’s such a good thing to point out, because if you’ve got to maybe have a plan for your second, that it’s nice for us to chat about a little, that actually the plans end up changing again. We think we know this.

Lucy [00:21:05]:

That’s what I think. I didn’t understand. So I think when I was wanting to have children, I was like, how hard can it be? It can’t be that hard to have a child. People talk about it, but it can’t be. But everyone does it. Why is it harder for some people? And I feel like I should apologize to everybody. I’d kind of thought about, like, why did they find it so hard? Or why did I think that was going to be hard? And I think it’s because nobody really explains. And before coming on this, I thought, how can I articulate this? And maybe it’s by way of example, but it’s because nothing goes to plan.

Lucy [00:21:39]:

So when you would create a plan so, like, for example, as you just said, I’m going to work in the evening, so one of your children probably is going to be awake. If that’s going to happen, if you’ve planned and you’ve blocked out, that you’re going to do some work, especially if you’ve got a newborn, they’re probably going to want to sleep on you. And you are not going to prioritise work, especially in scenarios where we’ve been where it’s been difficult and you’ve had stress, you’re not going to prioritise anything apart from that baby, even if you think beforehand you will. And you can have best laid plans where if everybody’s meant to be doing what they should, perfect, that’s fine, everything can work. But it just never happens in that way. And even if you do things like people were saying, just leave more white space in the diary, block things in in a different way, it just doesn’t happen. And then sometimes, even if you did get to that point, you’re absolutely exhausted. Because I remember thinking, why can’t people do workouts in the morning? Everybody could find ten minutes to have a workout in the previous sort of health and well being life, and that isn’t the case.

Lucy [00:22:40]:

I literally wouldn’t prioritise ten minutes now for a workout at all. And as parents, we put ourselves right at the bottom, and I think mothers definitely put themselves at the bottom of the list. And there’s a conversation to be had around whether that should happen. But it’s because you may have been up three or four times in the night, even with a baby who does normally sleep, or even if a toddler who normally sleeps they might be ill and you’re just trying to find all of these pockets of time. And then sometimes if you did have a night where there was a chance to get some sleep, you probably would prioritise the sleep and not doing the workout.

Caroline [00:23:14]:

Which you should, because that’s just like, better for you if not. And it’s so true. I think when I was in deep sleep deprivation with my second, a lot of the 05:00 a.m. club noise was coming out. Like, I get up at five and do this and I’m like, I’m just and also saying, though, it’s 05:00 a.m. club, but also get loads of sleep, go to bed at like eight and get up at five. And I was like, this is not our lives in the reality, this is great, thanks for telling me I need all this sleep, but that’s not going to happen.

Lucy [00:23:45]:

And you’re so right. And I think I’m very much in the midst of it in the sense that our baby is not even quite four months old at the moment, so baby two is still very tiny. And I keep seeing things that I want to do and I keep seeing people going on retreats or doing things and I keep thinking, well, maybe if I because I’m exclusively breastfeeding as well. So I was thinking, well, maybe if I didn’t do those kind of things or she would take a bottle or those things. And then I just sort of said, look, not my chapter. I’m in a different chapter now and I’m creating a life where we are very fortunate to have the things that we have got. And I don’t need to be speaking on world stages at the moment. I don’t need to be in those rooms growing a business at the trajectory that I could be, because the businesses are growing anyway and they’re doing really well.

Lucy [00:24:37]:

And my maternity leaves looked very, very different between the two because of the choices we’d made. But we did something at the start which was really unusual and my husband took share parental leave. He’s in HR and he has obviously sees a lot of this. And he was saying that it’s still such a tiny percentage of people, even though the legislation, the legislation is still quite new to provide to allow people to do shared parental leave. But when we did it, it was still so new that even his team, who were HR experts, sort of my team, we ended up having to call HMRC and speak to them about it because they were like, nobody really goes back to work after two weeks. And that’s essentially what I had to do, bearing in mind I was working for myself so I could choose what back to work meant. But in order for my husband is.

Caroline [00:25:31]:

This your first maternity leave or your second?

Lucy [00:25:34]:

The first one, yeah. That first time we knew I was going to take just the. Two weeks, and then I would be back for him to be able to take over the shared parental, even him to be off. So essentially he was off, and I was at home, and I’d blocked out, obviously, time where I wasn’t doing a lot, where I was just working on internal business things at the start. So I did that for a couple of months. So I was working my own diary and working on my own things, but essentially a lot of pressure on me there, because he just was on the stat was on statutory. I think it’s helpful to speak about those things. He wasn’t getting some huge corporate pay to be at home, to be a stay at home dad.

Lucy [00:26:13]:

He was just getting what anybody could get. So the pressure then was on me to find the salaries and make things work. And again, I breastfed that baby, and that was potentially something that you could say, don’t do that. But it was between meetings, between calls. It was hard. It was a lot of juggling, essentially, and it was a lot of things as well. As the first time around, I kept thinking, what are people going to think of me? What are people going to think if they could hear a baby in the background? And very quickly, I realised who the kind of people I wanted to work with were, and they were the people that sometimes were asking me, and then they would say, how’s things going? And I would explain, they were like, oh my goodness, if she wakes up, go and get her. We want to meet her.

Lucy [00:26:57]:

And those were my people. And I was really like, yes, okay, they get it. And I do remember being stuck on one call in particular, and it was only a very short call, but I could hear a meltdown happening downstairs, and that was really, really hard. So it was very flexible, and my husband couldn’t I couldn’t do it without my husband to have then be working for businesses. But it was hard to hear a baby crying and know you want to go to them. You’re torn, I think, a lot as a mom and as a business owner, because business was my first baby as well, in a way, that was my first thing that I was trying to grow and change.

Caroline [00:27:33]:

And it came from also the losses you had as well, I’m sure. So that kind of helps you push this business along from the places it came from.

Lucy [00:27:43]:

Yeah, definitely. I mean, thinking, this is a life we can create. So that was it. And it’s possible and open sort of to everyone. That’s why I sort of say it’s helpful if you know that we had a small pot of savings that gave me a bit of courage to take the leap. But very quickly, I was like, I need to be able to make sure I can cover my own salary, because I need to be able to do this when my husband I don’t want to touch that pot because we want to leave that little bit of a pot so my husband can be off. And we ended up just creating things and moving things in a way that we never had to touch that pot of money. But I think knowing that we had a bit of security and we didn’t have loads, we hadn’t gone on our honeymoon, I suppose that maybe helped, but we just paid for a wedding, so we didn’t have lots of money and I don’t think you need to have that.

Lucy [00:28:32]:

And it’s a toss up, isn’t it, of realising, actually, if we needed to, we’ll change our lives because this is what we want, we want to create this and I don’t want to lose another baby. We want to have a family now and that’s our priority.

Caroline [00:28:46]:

There was also something I want to ask, because I know listeners will find this helpful and thank you for sharing. Your husband was only on stat maternity pay. Was it because you were self employed? Because from when we briefly looked at it for my first baby as well. I think that’s really good to share is that, of course, not many people are going to be doing shared paternity leave when it’s based on the woman’s salary and women statistically earn less, especially if you’re on your second baby and things because work has taken a backseat. I think that’s like a huge reason for potentially why men don’t take as many much shared paternity leave, because of the fact it is what the woman gets and if they earn lower, they’re going to be on less.

Lucy [00:29:25]:

Yeah. And I think that’s such an interesting conversation to have, isn’t it? So, just before I left work, before I timed out my notice, I was earning more, so you could say I was the bread runner. I was always earning more than my husband was, and especially when you factored in bonuses because they were performance related, so I always shot off to get those. I was earning more than he was and then he had a very good salary and I didn’t earn a lot more than him, but we had two good salaries and that’s why I think people thought we were crazy, because also I was factoring in the fact that I had a great maternity pay as well and that was incredible. So it was like full pay for quite a lot of time.

Caroline [00:30:03]:


Lucy [00:30:04]:

And all of a sudden, because it’s a law firm, I guess, and all of a sudden I was giving that up too, and knowing I was in this chapter where I was about to want to use it, because I kept thinking, if I want to go back, I could. Nobody was obviously going to want to employ someone who was then going to be however many months pregnant, but I was thinking, if it doesn’t work out, I could go back, but you wouldn’t have the pay. So when we were leaving, there was a lot of financial consideration, but we made it work. And that’s the thing. And I think if you spend so long thinking about it, like, I realised I was staying in the job at one point for a pension and then a pot of money on my maternity pay that obviously it’s staggered and it reduces, but that we almost had in our savings. And I actually broke down the money. I was like, well, a pension is years off and I can add to my pension. And I have done.

Lucy [00:30:56]:

I have added to my pension and I put in more now than I ever had done before. And I was wanting this pot of money, which when I added it up, all the salary and how it decreases down, that I could touch if I wanted, that I could be thought if I say I’ll save that pot. So that was the pot that we had, that amount of money. And it’s not even that much. It wasn’t like hundreds of thousands of pounds. It was sort of between ten and 20,000. And I was so proud when I got to the end of the first year that I’d actually kept my salary exactly the same. I had my corporate salary and my business.

Lucy [00:31:32]:

I’d made it match that. So I’d actually had a blended maternity leave, let’s call it. I was off and I was back to work after two weeks, but I was sort of around with my baby, with my husband. My husband was off and I’d managed to keep the finances going for both of us. And I think it’s not as much as you might think, but it did really help me that I was very strategic in my businesses and I’d done a few things before, so I kind of knew what worked and what wouldn’t work in terms of the businesses. And I had a network when I decided to take that leap and go that I could really leverage and really go for.

Caroline [00:32:14]:

That’s really inspirational because I know I think I should have left. But the job I became redundant of before my childhood one I was too scared to leave because I thought, well, I’m just going to have another baby. Who’s going to hire me? And what you said about being pregnant, like, who’s going to hire a pregnant person? And it’s like, that’s the reality. I like to have the real talk, and I think that is the reality of everyone. At a certain age, you start to think, what’s the point in moving to a job I love or leaving my job to build a job I love? And I think I had to be made redundant and furloughed, but so inspirational that you were like, I’m just going to do it. What is the point in this?

Lucy [00:32:53]:

Yeah, I think it was because of what had happened and because we lost it. But then I also then was thinking, there’s going to come a point when I’m going to have to go back to that job. And I’d realised then that that job just wasn’t worth it. And that’s the realisation. And I think it comes down to this thought, isn’t it, of, can we have it all? And what does having it all look like when you actually sit back and think, what does all look like to me? Is climbing that corporate ladder and being the partner of a law firm somewhere else, is that what I actually want? And what is it that I want? Because actually I’m the managing partner of my own law firm now, which I’ve made it, I never thought would be the case. And I just think, like, I do the most incredible work, we have fantastic clients, and I thought as well, or maybe the quality of the work would diminish. And that’s when I was also like, I’m selling templates. I’m not even giving legal advice anymore, I’m a salesperson.

Lucy [00:33:55]:

And that’s when I was like, I don’t want to do that, I’m going to make a shift, I want to set up my own law firm. How hard can that be? Very hard. In case anyone’s interested, it’s really hard to do that.

Caroline [00:34:03]:

That’s good. I don’t plan on setting one up.

Lucy [00:34:06]:

Soon, but I just mean, as in, there’s always going to be a hurdle, isn’t there? And it’s about thinking, which is the one I want to jump most? Like, I couldn’t imagine getting to that year point, or nine months, whenever it might be after the baby’s born and going back to the office is what I was thinking it would be when I was making the decision. And I know there’s flexible working now, but I would never even see that child. I used to get the five to seven trains, 655, and I’d have walked my dog in the morning or done a workout in the morning. So going into London at 655 and I was rarely back before seven, so you’d be out for 12 hours, you wouldn’t see a child, especially once they got to sort of the toddler stage, they’d be in bed and you’d never see them.

Caroline [00:34:55]:

And then you get hit by school hours when they hit.

Lucy [00:34:58]:

Who’s going to do that? Who’s going to do the school run? You’re going to end up and I think a lot of people do, don’t they? Sit down and crunch the numbers and I think that’s a big thing for us, isn’t it? Those numbers of, how can is this worthwhile? When you crunch the numbers, you think, I’m going to pay for someone to look after my children so that I can stay in the profession. And there is a lot of trying to save face and show and be there, isn’t there? And keep working hard? Because why should you go and have time off and have a family and then come back and expect to be where you were before or even step up in your career when there’s people who’ve been working that whole time for a year or two years, whilst you’ve been taking a break, who obviously have been looking after clients, and you get.

Caroline [00:35:46]:

That break, you’ve been learning other skills that are hugely valuable to the workforce and bring other ideas and knowledge to it. But that’s not recognized in traditional systems in a lot of places, sadly, it isn’t.

Lucy [00:35:58]:

And I wonder if that’s because it’s a male female thing, because I will say from my own perspective, I didn’t understand the value of those skills. I didn’t understand I thought I had good time management, but I have children. You have even better time management and organisational skills and until you’re doing it, you don’t appreciate what patience is, for example, it changes you as a person, doesn’t it?

Caroline [00:36:23]:

And how you do need to work on yourself or I fully believe that to then parent these little things that are inheriting all of your things as well because we all have our good and bad side. And what I loved about that, when you’re talking about getting someone else to crunching the numbers, getting someone else to pick up your kids and things, because I’m going to be really transparent here because also you talk a lot about the stuff that you outsource and obviously my business is built on that. But my father’s my accountant and he has spoken about the amount of money my business spends on getting other people to support the business and I said to him, it’s either I do that or I take more money out and we pay for a nanny. And I know what it makes more business sense to have other people on the business for when I’m away and it also makes home sense that I do the pickup and stuff. And so I think that’s a really interesting way of looking at it. What’s your journey been like on bringing people to help you on your business so you can spend time with your family?

Lucy [00:37:19]:

Yeah, I think this is an interesting one because I haven’t got it right, it hasn’t gone well. We have probably, surprisingly, a tiny team. People think we’ve got a lot more in the team than we do. So within the two businesses, within the Lucy Legal business, I’d outsourced a little bit. My first experience of outsourcing was when I knew I was going to have a baby. So I’ve got an OBM that person is fantastic, work their way in gold, they charge a lot of money and I would pay them double because they’re so good and they get things done. I also then outsource to experts. One thing that I’m not very good at is graphics and design and things being a lawyer probably can see I wouldn’t necessarily have that skill set.

Caroline [00:38:00]:

Me neither.

Lucy [00:38:03]:

And I think that’s something that’s really important to know. If you are someone in business and you’re thinking, okay, where would I start? I would outsource something that you know how to do but you just aren’t very good at. So like the graphics or even like online business management, you know how your business runs and how you want it to run so you can hand that over to someone else. I wouldn’t outsource something that you don’t know how to do, like email marketing or Facebook ads or something that you don’t know. Because what happens there and what I’ve seen with my clients having lots of problems within those fields because the results don’t happen or they don’t happen quickly enough. And the setup takes a long time. And there’s potentially a mismatch in expectation because people think, well, how hard can it be to write a good email sequence and set up an email funnel? Actually really hard and there’s a lot that goes into it. It’s very strategic and if you don’t appreciate that, then you then maybe have this high expectation of someone coming into your business that they’re not going to be able to achieve that.

Lucy [00:39:03]:

So we set the business up with support. When I went on maternity, I then got somebody else in the firm, another lawyer to support to do the work there. But that didn’t go well because I outsourced at the wrong time. And by that I didn’t have enough time to dedicate to supporting that person. And I’ve reflected on this and I do think it was my fault rather than it necessarily being the wrong person. When you’re outsourcing, you want it to take the burden off you. But actually I think realistically you should expect your workload to almost be like doubling in that first three months if you’re doing the job of handing over properly and working with somebody because you should be guiding them and really helping them. And I didn’t give that enough time.

Lucy [00:39:48]:

I thought they’d need less handholding and I thought that it would be quicker and it just wasn’t. And I didn’t have the time to dedicate, to do things twice essentially for me to do it and then help them do it as well or do around them, then redoing it and me then redo it with them. That was really hard. And I think that’s the lesson to learn is that sweet spot of hiring before you need them. But then if you’re too busy, just actually don’t hire somebody, work through that capacity issue yourself because it’s the wrong time to bring on someone.

Caroline [00:40:20]:

No, it’s so true because at that point, if you don’t have time to invest in that relationship, it’s not going to work, is it? And I think that’s really good, valuable lessons to be like. Just because you can afford to bring someone in your business doesn’t mean it’s always going to work out.

Lucy [00:40:35]:

Definitely. And we actually outsourced, especially this time around, I’ve outsourced more of the home life, so we have a cleaner now, which we never did. And I actually love cleaning as well. I know people like their different things. There’s some jobs that you like sometimes you don’t. I love putting on a pot, putting on headphones. Well, this was kind of the old life as well, so I suppose it was not actually like that anymore. But I used to put on headphones, listen to podcasts and clean my house with children and things is never quite as peaceful and lovely as that anyway now, but I was just not getting to those kind of things.

Lucy [00:41:07]:

Food and things we have that catered or takeouts or different things like healthy takeouts, I’d like to say. And we outsource those bits because the business just doesn’t it’s not as easy to outsource those bits sometimes or because I know I can’t dedicate the time to it, that it needs to find the right person. Those are sort of quicker wins even just something like getting the windows cleaned. Somebody came round and knocked and said, do you want the windows doing? And my husband have been meaning to do it, but his priority is with the we’ve got two girls, so with the girls and he just isn’t getting round to that and that’s okay, it’s okay to ask for help and there’s no award. You don’t get to a certain point like, oh, well done, you’ve had a baby for two years and you cleaned your house every day yourself, or there’s no award for breastfeeding or bottle feeding or all of this kind of thing. We put this pressure on, I want to do this and I want to make it this way. There are probably awards or there are awards for doing my own business or those kind of things, or your children may get or having a hobby. You win a medal, don’t you? If you go and do a marathon and having or a five k or a ten k, whatever it might be, or a tough mudder.

Lucy [00:42:23]:

There’s merit, I think, in spending time doing the fun things in life and going, actually, no one’s going to judge you if someone cleans your house. No one’s going to judge you if you have one of those boxes that come with food in. I’m trying to not say any brand names. I know the one instructions, one one.

Caroline [00:42:46]:

Sponsor us, that would be great.

Lucy [00:42:49]:

No one is judging you about that. We put so much pressure on ourselves to think we’ve got to do all of the things and do it. And almost this is one thing I’ve learned in being in business, is find the simplest route, do whatever is simplest, because that gets results in business and it gets results in the home as well.

Caroline [00:43:10]:

It’s so true and it’s interesting because you said no one judges you, but there’s literally a podcast steph from Don’t Buy Her Flowers. And she has a cleaner every week, and she talked about how she got judged for it. And I think that’s what we need to be clear is, like, literally, do not judge. I think sometimes we can be hardest on other people because probably from a place of jealousy.

Lucy [00:43:31]:

Yeah. I was going to say, is it judgment or is it jealousy? And also, does that matter, though? And it’s about this ranking sort of exercise I’m often doing in my head of like, what is the most important thing here? Okay, let’s say people are going to judge us. Let’s say that is a reality, that there are going to be people who judge us. Who do I care most about? I care most about the happiness of my family and knowing that they’re really happy, but no one’s actually going to know. I mean, you can tell people if you have a cleaner, if you like, but no one would know if you did or not. Obviously, people will know if you’re not there to do the children’s pickup and your children will know. That might be an important factor for you to be like, actually, that has to happen. I want to do that bit.

Lucy [00:44:13]:

But no one’s going to know those other things. No one’s going to know if you’re wearing a shirt. Did iron this shirt myself or did I take it to the laundry and did they iron it for me? You don’t know, and I don’t have to tell you that. And it’s no one else’s business. And even if I did, maybe I’m helping the economy and helping another small business owner by giving them that word. That’s what I kind of think about the cleaner as well. When we first got her, she was a new business owner, and she set up her business, and we were talking about business, and she was so passionate. And I was like I had this thing in my head about cleaning.

Lucy [00:44:44]:

And actually, it then turned into a really great experience. And she was trying to grow her own business, and she really wanted more clients. And we’d become one. It can be a bit full circle like that.

Caroline [00:44:55]:

Yeah. And I will fully hold my hands up. It’s my goal to have my laundry outsourced forever because I can then work on my business, do the school pickup. It’s literally just I have no shame in saying the things I would happily get rid of if it means I can put my time elsewhere.

Lucy [00:45:13]:

Yeah. And I mean, I think if someone could do ours, that would be incredible because I just cannot believe how much laundry there is.

Caroline [00:45:19]:

Two kids, it’s the next level. And you’re in the thick of it, obviously, with the poop and the sick.

Lucy [00:45:26]:

Yeah. And a baby. That’s not very well. And so this time around with the plan again, I had this plan, and I was going to spend more time with the baby this time because the businesses were more established. My clients could pass to somebody else to take time away. And there was this whole plan, and then she hasn’t been well, and it’s just changed everything again. So, whereas I was probably going to start turning things up again in the business, I’ve actually said, no, that’s not a priority. The priority is to be with my baby and she’s only going to be tiny for a while.

Lucy [00:46:00]:

And I felt like we’ve missed a bit of the newborn phase with her being so ill. So that, again, having that flexibility to make that choice. I hope I don’t sound at all entitled in any of this and almost like I do this this way, but I’ve worked so hard to find a route that does work for the family and to get this level of flexibility. And don’t get me wrong, there are a lot of late nights, there are lots of sort of 02:00 a.m. Finishes where the day has not gone to plan. I haven’t found the work pockets I needed to. And I’m picking up the work late because I can see where things need to happen now to create the business, to keep it moving in the momentum it needs to. And also to keep my husband and keep the family as we are all together without him having to go back to work.

Lucy [00:46:47]:

So it’s definitely a juggle, but it’s about, I know I’m so fortunate to be able to make that choice.

Caroline [00:46:54]:

Yeah. And I think there’s a lot of it’s interesting, there’s so many points to touch on, because I’ve spoken to a lot of business owners here who think second time they’ve had a bit more flexibility or something has changed. I can really relate to that myself, where you’re like, I’ve got to do this. And I think even if you’re employed, there’s things that are going to change and you end up just making different choices based on how your family is and doing the right thing for you. And it’s been your goal to create a certain life. So therefore, if you’re living that life or getting towards living that life, you should never apologise for that. And how is your baby now, can I ask?

Lucy [00:47:35]:

Yes, she’s doing all right. We’ve got just unanswered questions and it’s just about feeding and things and we have the moment. And if anybody else has this, I’m going to know how you feel about the failure to thrive. And that especially if you are juggling a lot of balls you feel are very responsible for that kind of label being put on your child. And you think, I’m failing in everything, like I’m not doing a good enough job. Failure to thrive. I don’t feel like they should say that, but they do. And she just I think it’s maybe an allergy.

Lucy [00:48:09]:

We’ve still got appointments and things and it’s complicated, isn’t it? But I think that’s again, we’d had a baby previously that we got support early on. I would definitely encourage anybody to do that, to get a feeding consultant to come and support you early on. We did that with the first one, but we didn’t with the second one. And then we have since because we were wondering if it was a feeding issue. We then got a late tongue tie diagnosis, which we hadn’t been expecting for the second one, but we got support really early on. And again, there’s no award. I fed the first baby from the beginning to a year and we got, I think within the first few days, someone came to the house, we paid we’re luckily able to do that to pay for a private consultation, but it’s not that much. She came to the house, she supported us.

Lucy [00:48:56]:

We didn’t do it early the second time, and I kind of wish that we had, but I think, yeah, it’s eye opening then to think, okay, let’s shift it again, let’s move the goalposts. What does the business need to do? And I think you become a much better business owner as well when you have children, because you suddenly get rid of all of the rubbish that you were doing, all of the tasks you didn’t really need to do, the busy being busy tasks. Perhaps you get really strategic about how to grow a business, how to make it work. And I have definitely done that to be like, how can I make a business work? How can I make it work without me? And then there’s the whole bit, as you say, working on yourself, trying to work through the idea of a business, making money without it being hard work. And how does that feel like? Should you feel like you should be doing the seven till 02:00 A.m. All the time, 07:00 A.m. To 02:00 a.m.? Working hard because to make a decent money, you have to put the work, the hours in. It’s a lot of that that you have to work through yourself and undo.

Lucy [00:50:04]:

That’s been a process as well, personally, to realise that a lot of the things I had learned or thought about business had come from being in the corporate world and you don’t have to run your business like that.

Caroline [00:50:19]:

No, it’s so true. And you make your own rules. Like with this, I’ve been determined just Wednesday’s, Mummy Day, occasionally that changes, but you do make your own rules, and that’s the point. And if anyone’s not doing that and like I said, and feeling unhappy, then that’s something for you to change and think about and consider. And that’s what I love as well, what you said about the hours you put in, because I do think there needs to be a bit more awareness about the hours it does take. You got to make things change. But there are things with hours I like a lot about your content.

Caroline [00:50:52]:

It’s very refreshing on calling out the whole you can earn X by working 4 hours a day, 4 hours a week kind of thing. Which there is a lot of online, isn’t there?

Lucy [00:51:02]:

Yeah, there is a lot of that. And I think what’s hard as well is if you’ve got a client facing business, like I saw someone give advice last week and they said, if things aren’t feeling great in your business, take a week off. Okay, that sounds like a great idea. I know what they’re saying. They’re saying, go away, get space. You get more ideas when you’re not in the business. But if you’ve got a client facing business, how do you make it work? And I think that’s what’s interesting about my businesses is they are hands on. There’s some things yeah, with the template shop that it does, I don’t want to say it runs by itself, but you can do those things at 02:00 am

Lucy [00:51:38]:

You can’t have a meeting with a client at 02:00 A.m.. Like you have got to be available, especially with it you’re providing legal services to people. They’ve got an issue, they want support between nine and five. So there is this pressure to be available for your clients as well. It depends what kind of business you’re running. That’s what I would say to anybody listening to those kind of voices in the online space. If they are creating a business where they only have to do one group coaching call once a week, that’s brilliant, that’s great, that’s the way they’ve created their business. But you’re potentially comparing yourself to them and your business model is never going to be that, because you’ve got to be available to your clients when they want the support.

Lucy [00:52:20]:

So I think that comes from having really clear boundaries and thinking about what’s reasonable. And pretty much all but one of my clients was incredible through the maternity piece when I did take time off this time and I said, look, these are the people that going to look after you. I’m not going to answer any questions. Please don’t ask me everybody book, but one. There’s always one. Everybody honoured that and gave me the space because people understand and they’re your clients, they’re the people you want to work with. If there’s people that are stepping over those boundaries and you’ve really laid them out firmly, you don’t have to work with everyone. And again, that’s a lot of doing the work of thinking, knowing that the business will come in from other angles.

Lucy [00:53:05]:

But you don’t have to take those clients who constantly pick up the phone at five to five on a Friday evening. They’re not your people. You’re not in that chapter to be able to support them. You can’t support everybody and work with everybody, find the people that maybe are parents or just get it and are a lot lower maintenance.

Caroline [00:53:25]:

I can so relate to that because the whole reason I kind of grew the agency model was I thought, well, I can’t support clients unless I’m Monday to Friday. Totally not true. Because I have team members who don’t and we’ve got arranged hours with their clients, like, say, mornings or Monday to Thursdays, things like that. But that’s the whole reason because I just wasn’t confident. I thought like, oh, clients will expect me Monday to Friday. So I’ll put the team in place that can do that. And I’ve obviously since learned not the case, but I think such an important message that if you do want to have different hours, school hours, something like that, find the clients that are happy with that.

Lucy [00:54:02]:

Yeah, and they will be because nobody’s expecting you to be sat at your desk. And that’s such a huge lesson. I’m so pleased that you’ve shared that you found that because do you know what a lot of clients really do like is for you to say, this is your slot. This is your slot in my diary. So turn it around. Instead of being like, I don’t work after 03:00 P.m. Because I’m doing a school run, you say to them, Tuesday mornings, they’re yours. You make them feel really special because they are.

Lucy [00:54:27]:

And it’s not to say you won’t ever help them in an evening, because you would, but it then makes them realise, oh, okay, she does my work on a Tuesday, so if I want to get anything to her, I’ll do that on a Monday. Actually. People love that. They love to feel like they’ve got their own place in your diary that’s saved for them, that you’re dedicating that time to them. And that’s all they want. They want the outcome. They don’t really care whether you’ve sat in a corporate environment and gone to an office to do it and worked and how you’ve delivered that result. They want the result in the way that you in a timely manner and you can turn it around and make them feel more special about it.

Lucy [00:55:03]:

Maybe if you’re planning your work in a certain way.

Caroline [00:55:06]:

I love that. It’s so true. I always say that. It’s like, wow, how can we phrase this to the client? And I think that’s something that should be taught a lot more for people who are freelancers and things and want things a certain way. It’s like, what’s the benefit for the client? And then make them feel special with it.

Lucy [00:55:24]:

People are terrified. And it is where legal comes in. And I think this is where people think legal is just the bit at the bottom of your footer on your website. It’s just that bit that you bury at the bottom. Or there are the terms and conditions which no one ever reads tentatively. But you’re missing a trick here because this is where understanding legal obligations can really help you and empower you in business. Because if you know that you’ve set your terms, that you are available to speak to people between ten and three Monday to Wednesday, and you’re not available on the other days or however it might be that you set it, then you’re meeting your minimum service level requirements and also creating that business that you love. And it may be that you price your business on that.

Lucy [00:56:09]:

So you might say, look, turnaround time is typically three to four business days, and that might be what you do. And someone might read that and go, oh, well, I don’t want to work someone whose turnaround is that slow, great, they’re not your client. They move on, they find someone else. You’ve been really clear. You obviously are going to try and over deliver. You’re going to give it to them in one to two to three business days that they’re like, wow, she’s actually prioritising me in my work because she doesn’t normally do deliver in this time. And she’s told me really clearly that that’s when she delivers, you can then over deliver or you can then realise within your own diary, okay, things have gone wrong in the home life. What’s the most important thing here which needs to happen? And you give yourself that flexibility and you give yourself that space.

Lucy [00:56:54]:

And I think there used to be ridiculous time frames that we used to have to respond to. Like, you’d have to acknowledge something from a client when it came in that day and someone challenged me on it with the firm, and they were like, why have you set it up that way? Because that’s how you do business. And she’s like, that’s how you can do business. But why have you chosen to bring those timescales into your business? And I was like, I do not know, because that’s not what my clients want. And it’s putting an inordinate amount of pressure on me to try and respond to people. And I’ve created that myself, and I didn’t need to. I can choose to say, we’ll acknowledge your inquiry in this way or get automation to do it or whatever it might be, but I think there’s definitely a lesson there to this really creating this life and business intentionally in the way that you want to do it.

Caroline [00:57:43]:

That’s so true, because when I work for a service that used to promise seamless cover, and if you’ve worked with VAS, if you’ve got a relationship, say, with me as your VA, and then I pop in some holiday cover, it’s not going to be the same, is it? Because of the relationship we’ve built. And I think that I got so put off by that, and then it took a while to realise I don’t need to promise that in my business because I don’t believe in it’s. Just I love sharing these sort of things because I genuinely think they help people who forget you can make your own rules. And I’ve got to ask you, Lucy, so as a legal person. So someone starting out, let’s say a service based business, they’re going to start something. What are the three things they have to get?

Lucy [00:58:25]:

I would say you’ve got to get a privacy policy. Really pretty boring. But privacy, because it’s data protection, is integral to everything and it’s a legal requirement. You want to get some terms and conditions. People often say, well, is it terms and conditions, a contract and agreement, they’re all kind of the same thing. So something that’s going to tell people what you’re going to deliver, what you’re going to deliver and when, and you can cultivate that and create that in a way that works for you. And I’d also start looking really on at the brand protection piece. People leave that way too late.

Lucy [00:58:56]:

But if you can get a trademark, they’re not as expensive as you might think. But that’s about creating something and protecting it, because we talk a lot about sacrifices and it just breaks my heart when people make all the sacrifices, they do all of this juggle and they’ve not got a trademark in place to protect their business. That’s really then sad, isn’t it? Because you’ve made those sacrifices and then you lose it all. So you don’t want to be doing that. So, yeah, looking at trademark early. So privacy, because it’s the law, terms and conditions, it’s also the law that you’ve got something in writing that tells people what their rights are, especially in respect to a refund and the trademark as well.

Caroline [00:59:33]:

Thank you so much. Thank you for clarifying about contracts and terms and conditions because I know that can like people. I think sometimes it’s like with finance as well, I think some places that it can all get a bit too much of the jargon. So it’s nice with people like you who keep it simple for people like me.

Lucy [00:59:49]:

No, you’re very welcome. And I think that’s the thing as well. It’s often we say, if you can outsource some of these bits, then do outsource that bit, but you’ve got to understand it, so it’s not going to do great. If you like, I’m going to get a legal contract and outsource that bit. If you don’t actually know what kind of contract or what kind of terms you need, it’s tricky, isn’t it? But we hopefully provide that service and support so that people can spend more time doing the things that they want to do in their lives, rather than sitting writing legal documents. Because I’ll be the first person to say, it’s not that exciting. No one wants to be spending time doing that. You definitely want to spend time with your family over drafting legal documents and.

Caroline [01:00:26]:

You’Ve spent many years getting it right. And I’m sure if I tried to do that, I would very much get that. Yeah, I’ve never done any of my legal things, so I’m fully in support of that. Lucy, just to say, you have been an absolute pleasure today. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for sharing your story, because I know there’ll be a lot of people that really relate to it or get comfort that there’s other people going through something they’ve gone through, both personally and in business. And you really are inspiring. What you’ve achieved in three years this year, will it be then?

Lucy [01:00:59]:

Technically, yeah.

Caroline [01:01:01]:

So, thank you. And where can people find you, Lucy?

Lucy [01:01:04]:

Well, thank you very much for saying it’s inspiring and I just hope it does help people. And you can find me on social media at lucy underscore legal. Feel free to send a message about anything work related, business related, family related, yeah. And lucylegal.co.uk is our website, if you want to take a look at the templates.

Caroline [01:01:27]:

If you don’t have them in place, that’s the most cost effective way to get them. You’ve got a lot on there. So, yeah, thank you. And thank you for everything you do for the business community and yeah, thank you again, Lucy. It’s been a pleasure.

Lucy [01:01:41]:

Well, thank you for having me on. It’s been so great to speak to. Take care.

Caroline [01:01:44]:


Lucy [01:01:45]:

Thank you. Bye.


Thank you so much for listening to Bump to Business Owner. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. Please do rate, review, follow or subscribe wherever you’re listening. It really helps us to connect with more mums and business owners. You can DM me at Bump to Business Owner on Instagram and I’ll be back next week.